In this episode, Kevin Redmond, founder of Tribel Deeper Learning, joins the show as we talk about the importance of soft skills in the evolving workplace and the idea of soft skills as leadership currency. Plus, Kevin gives us 3 things managers need to know about soft skills.
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Tribel Deeper Learning: https://mytribel.com/
Reach out to Kevin: email@example.com
Check out an edited transcript of the conversation between Jason and Kevin below.
Jason Davis 0:09
Welcome to Lead Smarter Not Harder, you're stop for how to stand out as a leader. I'm your host, Jason Davis. And I'm really excited about the show this week. In this episode, I'm joined by Kevin Redmond, founder of Tribel Deeper Learning as we talk about the importance of Scout soft skills in the workplace, the idea of soft skills and leadership currency. And Kevin gives us three things that managers need to know about soft skills. Please remember to rate and review the show as it helps us reach a wider audience. And I greatly appreciate the support. Let's go!
Joining me today, my guest, Kevin Redmond, is the founder of Tribel Deeper Learning, a digital platform that helps people effectively learn soft skills. Kevin, thanks for joining the show.
Kevin Redmond 0:58
Thank you very much. Thanks for having me, Jason.
Jason Davis 1:00
So tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
Kevin Redmond 1:04
Well, I, I'm a founder of like you said, Tribel, which is a digital edtech platform. But really, that's almost like a vehicle for what I do. I'm a teacher, first, like, I'm a student, I'm a teacher, that's, it's a bit of a cliche to say, I'm a lifelong learner, but I'm always learning. And my background is in engineering originally. And then I went into teaching for like, the last 20 years. And I've taught like mathematics and physics and a lot of study skills and memory techniques, mind maps efficiency for students over the years taught 10s of 1000s of students here in Ireland.
I am a an entrepreneur, founder or CEO, whatever you want to call me, I'm one of those things, because that is my vehicle to being a better teacher. So I'm almost it's like, you know, some people start companies, and then they start another company and another company, I have no interest in that I have no interest in startups in particular, I'm interested in teaching, I'm interested in learning information or knowledge or gaining knowledge and then passing it on to other people. That's, that's my passion. So that's, that has led to, you know, some interesting opportunities, opportunities, I suppose a lot longer along the way along the years. And at the moment, Tribel is my vehicle for getting my message out there, if you like of soft skill training really, like it's it's a it's an interesting one. But yeah, I've it's been a long, roundabout kind of journey to get to this point. But now I know that I've settled on Tribel as my vehicle for achieving what I want to achieve.
Jason Davis 2:49
Yeah, that's fantastic.
So tell us a little bit about how you got to that point, you know, why? Why soft skills? Why are you so passionate them?
Kevin Redmond 3:04
Okay, so I'll give you the whistlestop tour of my resume. I did electronic engineering in in Dublin, here in Ireland. And I worked at that for about 20 minutes before I realized this is not for me at all. And during that time in college I gave, we call in Ireland here we call it grinds, right. So Brian does like private tutoring. So, you know, a mother or father would get my number from the local noticeboard and call me and I gone I spent an hour on a Saturday morning explaining quadratic equations and trigonometry and whatever to teenagers essentially. And it was the easiest money I ever made. Because I was studying engineering in college. And this was this was like, I could do it on my sleep. And it was, to this day, the most disposable income I've ever had in my life was those few years where I was hundreds and hundreds here, my pocket every This guy used to get up on a Saturday morning and where I live, I get it start at like 9am. And I wouldn't stop until 5pm. And I wouldn't take a break and walk between all the different houses just collecting money as I went. So anyway, during the time in, in college, that's when that's what I did to you know, fund my lifestyle really. And I fell in love of teaching I fell in love with this idea of somebody not understanding something in particular mathematics. Say for example, a quadratic equation, somebody who's 14 or 15 What I noticed is that they didn't even want to look at the problem. They were so terrified of getting it wrong so terrified of of making a mistake that they wouldn't even look at the page or the question was written down. I remember thinking this is really interesting that you know, all mathematics is is rules just do this and that doesn't work. Do this instead and just kind of follow the rules. It's I wouldn't say it's easy but like that level
As you can follow the rules. And I always remember thinking about the psychology of that, that somebody was afraid to, to, to even approach the question. So I, I fell in love, like I said, of getting this content, my head into somebody else's head. And I finished my degree. And I went down straightaway into college again, essentially, and study to be what we call a secondary school teacher or a high school teacher for other people. So I qualified as a mathematics and physics teacher did that for a few years, and I knew teachings it knew teaching was the thing for me. And I kind of had ideas about other little businesses along the way. And I've always said, I'm not an entrepreneur, and I don't I don't really consider myself to be an entrepreneur. But I've spotted things along the way that I thought that could be done better. Or I looked at that seems like an adventure to kind of try and do this particular thing. So I had other side businesses along the way that some went better than others. But hmm, I kind of had this, this, this idea that I knew teaching was it. But teaching high school, wasn't it because it was like Groundhog Day, you know, after you'd get one group of kids through the process and kind of get them up and running. And then the next group commander thing, I'm, what's in it, for me, it's kind of selfish, I suppose. But it's not an inner for me, like I've, I've mastered, I know what I'm teaching, I just needed. So anyway, it wasn't for me. And I went on to work for a company where I was delivering study skills, which was really, really, really, because I was visiting teenagers, and showing their parents as well, and their teachers, you know, how efficient you could be with teaching somebody, memory makes Mind Maps, you know, motivational stuff for students. And so that was I taught 10s of 1000s of kids doing that, and it was amazing. But at the same time, I was also delivering content into companies. So I was the guy standing in front of a group of 12 people in a in a boardroom for four hours saying, These are the seven secrets of selling or the, you know, the whatever of leadership, you know, there was an interesting kind of comparison between my two jobs. One was delivering study skills where I was teaching how to memorize content. And then the other side of my job was standing in front of an audience for four hours, knowing that they wouldn't remember I was there next week, that alone only thing that I actually taught him. And I know Dulcie, those things kind of round around in my head. And for years, and I tried different different ways of kind of marrying the two things up together.
And did a kind of, you know, I went down to work for an elearning company, it was a startup and I learned a huge amount about the online space and how all that works. And then I got into instructional design, where I was quite good at you know, putting PowerPoint presentations scattered kind of interesting looking PowerPoints not going to lead into the the elearning content where like instructional design, putting actual courses together online courses. So I decided, well, maybe that's my my way into teaching professionals about sales or assertiveness or whatever the topic was that I could like, create elearning. And present that in a way that I didn't have to stand there for four hours, they didn't just have to get through it for four hours and tick the box at the end, that there would actually be a transfer of learning of some description. So that wasn't scalable, ultimately, is is the bottom line there. When you're creating elearning content, it can take weeks to create a course if you really wanted to make it look good. And you know, for all the different triggers to work and all the back end things it takes a long time to get all that right, wasn't scalable. I also decided that I wanted to teach content from the best business books because I, my default setting is just to read if I'm left alone with my wife and kids leave me alone for it's never happened. But if they left me alone for 10 minutes, I'd end up reading the book, right? That's just that I'm joking, of course, leave me alone. I will always kind of gravitate towards a book and a coffee and a chair. That's just you know what I will do? I remember reading it and the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, which is a well known book that mostly most people would know, the copy, I have that book on the front cover, it says 15 million copies sold. And you keep in mind that I had all these other things kind of swimming around in my head about instructional design and memory techniques, delivering content to professionals. And I read this book, and I remember closing it over and think that's a great book that's really well laid out seven habits makes perfect sense.
And I remember looking again at the 15 million copies sold on the front and I remember thinking, I wonder how many of those 15 million people can name several habits. Like all the people who are listening to this podcast Now ask yourself ask Can you name the seven habits of highly effective People because everyone says great book gold blah, blah, blah, you know, full of great information, how many people can actually name them? And then out of those people who can actually name it, how many have actually deliberately practiced them in their actual lives have gone out into the big bad world and tried these things. And it's an even smaller percentage again. So then you think, Well, Stephen Covey, who wrote that book that he wastes his time, if nobody can remember the content, what was the point in him writing it? What was the point of me spending whatever spent 20 euros or $20 on the book, and spend a few weeks reading it if I can't remember anything from us, then I looked at my bookshelf, and it was full of these kinds of books, there's so many books that have so much great content, it's each of these boxes is a is an individual's life story, essentially, or their life lessons, everything that kind of hoovered up or gathered over the years.
So all of these things kind of came together, then into Tribel or what used to be called use, because which was a former version of this, and I couldn't scale it through. I couldn't, I couldn't scale it through elearning content. But I did have three pillars that I needed to hit. And this is like, my philosophy over the last 20 years of teaching has kind of all culminated in Tribel, and it's all culminated in these three pillars, the three pillars of these, first of all, you need to understand your newly acquired knowledge. Secondly, you need to remember, and thirdly, you need to practice it. But the first part there to understand what that really means to me is that somebody has to know. Or I should say, what what it means to understand that is to know where will I actually apply this in my own life, your personal or professional life. So say The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. The first habit is to be proactive, do Can I can I understand where I need to be proactive in my life. And can I think of a situation where it could have been proactive to just kind of imagining yourself in the situation of being private, that's the first part. The second thing you need them to remember, doesn't mean that should we print it off, and put it into a drawer, save somewhere or saved and Google Documents somewhere, it needs to be at the moment of truth, you need to have us at the forefront of your mind, not written down in a notebook somewhere, the moment of truth is in the middle of a sales conversation, to remember to let that silence hang, if that's what should happen, that kind of thing is what you need to remember. Or you're having, you're doing a very important presentation, you need to make sure that you're breathing. But does this sound like just remember to talk by 25% slower than you think you are talking talk 25% slower is always a good one. Or could be having a conversation with a difficult colleague. And that could be remember to not let emotion get in the way or to make use emotions tactically, right, something like that. They're all like little bits and pieces that you would learn from these books, you need to remember these things at the moment of truth. The third thing you need to do them is deliberately practice. So to decide on an actual time and a place some future dates, where I will be proactive, I will practice my breathing during a presentation or I whatever the thing is, and then after you've deliberately practices is you need to make sure that you have reflected on this. So let's say, let's say you had a team meeting. So you have all your direct reports reporting to you. In a meeting at 10 o'clock on Tuesday morning, I'm going to deliberately practice being a source of clarity to the team about the new annual leave policy, right, let's just say, and then after that happens, you need to make sure well, did I do that? Did it go? Well, they understand how do I know they understood all of these little things. So what our platform does is those three things is to help somebody understand remember to deliberately practice, and then present that content to whoever needs to measure and track yourself skill behaviors. I don't know if that answers your question, Jason, I can't even remember your question at this point.
Jason Davis 13:54
Kevin Redmond 13:54
It absolutely does. And, you know, thank you for that. I you know, so a couple of things that I think are really interesting about what you just said there one, you know, how, you know how you're kind of practicing what you're preaching here, right? You're you're you're you're taking what you've observed what you learn through the private tutoring, through teaching in secondary school, things like that. And not just doing the thing, right, not just teaching people something and saying, Alright, I'm done for the day. But you're also understanding the the nuanced pieces of it, right, you know, what are the things that are helping people learn and what are the things that are kind of standing in front of them?
Jason Davis 14:31
You know, and in for me, similarly, I was a corporate trainer, corporate facilitator, right. I did that for a few years. And it was something that I fell in love with to once I started doing it. Once I was in a position of being able to kind of help people go from one place to where they need to be, you know, from a learning standpoint, or you know, as far as we can get them anyway. It's really fulfilling as an individual. Yeah, I think anyway, yeah. So there's a lot there,
Kevin Redmond 14:59
Just to interrupt it, it reminded me of something I used to think about when I was doing those grinds or that that private tutoring. I used to be addicted to that lightbulb moment where a teenager who wouldn't look at the question on the page after maybe six or seven weeks ago, oh, like, oh, wait, no, I get it now. Right. And then you can see their confidence growing. And it's the same thing, when you're teaching negotiation, or sales or whatever the oh, I'm honestly addicted to that give you all kinds of endorphins going on, you know, I mean, yeah, all kinds of things going off, you know, for the for the person teaching, I think, you know, I mean, it's not just a yes, they finally got it, it's a, you know, this is going to help them be better, in whatever way right, and whatever you're achieving, I absolutely do resonate with the Groundhog's Day comment, you know, my, so I did a lot of new hire training, and it was four weeks. So every four to five weeks, I had a new class, we're going to have the same thing, you know, so yeah, that, that did get a little old. You know, but I think your pillars are interesting, as well. And they lead a lot into just, you know, how people want to learn, especially on in adults in the corporate world or in, in the working world, right, you know, understanding what it is that I'm learning, you know, it's, it's so much of that question, and I've been there, right, you know, I'm sitting in a in a class, and I'm listening to somebody, talk and talk and talk. And I'm like, why am I here? You know, what am I doing here, and it's, and it's because that either that they haven't been able to articulate that, you know, how I'm going to be better after this, my manager didn't articulate it to me, before I came, I'm not able to connect those dots, you know, there's all kinds of things that might be going on there, that I think are just important to pay attention to. And then, you know, as you said, really getting into that practice, right? Or people don't have the opportunity to use what it is they learned in a very short amount of time, after they learned it. Right? It can't be alright, we're gonna do this now. And then in two weeks, you might run into this problem, where you got to fix it, it's no, it's how do you get into that just in time, type of environment? Exactly. Yeah. And that actually, as well, on that point, as well, it's very important for somebody to, to discard newly acquired knowledge, just as important as it is to add it just because you have learned something or understood something and remember this, you could try something and it might not work, like say, for example, somebody, and you could learn something like, you know, be more empathetic in a meeting with one of my direct reports. And you might do that and think actually, I went too far there that I was too empathetic I, again, I capitulated too much to their demands, because I was trying to be emotionally present, or whatever the thing is. So what I always say to people that listen to our podcasts, or to or use our platform is that when we're teaching these things, whether it's the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, or, you know, whatever the topic is, I think we've got nearly 50 different books we've covered now. But one of the things to keep in mind is that when it's being taught to somebody, we teach us in discrete moments in time, like be proactive, think Win Win, begin with the end in mind, but, but in reality, they all kind of wash over each other, they all kind of mesh together, I can, you have to keep that in mind that even though I might be deliberately practicing being being proactive, or being a source of clarity for my team. In reality, just just three or four other things gonna be practicing at the same time without even realizing it's all like to teach us or to understand it has to be kind of broken out into its individual constituent parts, if you like, and then in the real world, you're gonna have to bring it all together and just see how it goes. And and that's why it's important to reflect on it afterwards and go, Well, did it go to Planned or not? Did I practice something I didn't really did, did I realize something I wasn't expecting to realize it's all those little, those little nuggets along the way is that it's going to lead you to, to that, that aha moment that that moment of clarity, that lightbulb moment or thing so and that's what we try and do is we try to try to allow people to create their own bespoke learning path. By using discrete little bits and pieces to go with it.
Jason Davis 19:18
That's great. Something that that I like to try to put into practice every day, you know, spending 20-30 minutes if I got it, to just write down or think through what did I learn today? Yeah, what happened in the day, what did I learn? What can I take away from that? You know, again, so that it's the Hey, things that were positive, how do I do more of that? Or how do I you know, really take advantage of that. Things that didn't work out the way I wanted them? What are you going to do differently? You know, but it's, it's giving yourself that space to, to just be a little honest with yourself around what did you learn? What could you do differently? What can you do better? I think that's I think that's fantastic.
Kevin Redmond 19:57
Yeah, 100% it's one of the things
I say to my children, when I put them to bed at night, I say, what was the best thing that happened today? Did you make anybody laugh? Did anybody make you laugh? My three year old who says no to all of us. So we're still we're still working on him. But the two girls, they know the deal. Now they know that, you know, there'll be asked these questions, and they really enjoy reflecting on their day. And then our eldest daughter, as she said, that when she wakes up in the morning, she does the same thing. She thinks about all the things she's going to do today, and how she hopes things will go, I think that's a really important skill for everyone to have that self awareness or that ability to almost step outside yourself and think, Well, how did I perform today? And did I do well, and could I've done things better. So I think it's if you can, if you can teach people that at a young age, it's, it's a great skill to take into the rest of your life. That's a great point. And I you know, and tell me if this has happened, or you know, maybe we can talk later, and you can, we can talk about it. But you know, that's also a great way to start to understand that your day is not going to always go the way you planned it, right, or the or the way that you thought it was going to be to go. So how are you going to have the resiliency and the you know, the push to move through those things, right, and make it through that and just understand that I think are learning at a young age is really, really cool. I'll be interested to see how that's how that's going for you. Well, you know, what I always say as well to my wife and I are, we're very lucky actually to we're all we're both on the same wavelength about a lot of these things. But I always kind of try and it's hard to explain this concept was supposed to kid but I always tried to convey this, that you don't necessarily want an easy life, you don't want everything to go well, what you really want is to resilience, like you said to you want the skill set to be able to deal with things when they go wrong. So if one of my kids is having a problem with one of our plates, or something that we don't go and fix it for them, necessarily we will give them the skills or give them the the words to use or the things to think about that they you're you want to build you're trying to remove all their obstacles, you know, and I think that's the same like, I think it's weird. It can sound a bit patronizing maybe. But I think there's a there's a lot of comparisons between how we act professionally and how how parenting is it's almost like you're it's a skill set. It's like a psychological skills that you have to develop, whether it's in sales, or assertiveness or whatever. It's about understanding the emotional toolkit that you need to propel yourself and your team and whoever else forward. So it there's a lot I've noticed a lot of comparisons, since I've had kids, I've noticed a lot of comparisons between because they're like a blank canvas so that they're easy to paint on the kids that they're you can kind of help you launch in the right direction, whereas professionals are a bit more set in their ways. So because there is a lot of comparisons a lot, a lot of parallels, I should say. Because it's all the same stuff. It's just it's an emotional toolkit you're trying to build.
Jason Davis 22:55
Exactly, exactly. All right.
The other day, I saw a headline, and it was about soft skills being the new leadership currency. What do you think about that? What what do you think about that statement? What are your thoughts?
Kevin Redmond 23:11
Yeah, it's an interesting one. I guess, you know, I don't know if you're allowed mentioned the COVID word on this podcast. But you know, it's that has that turned everything upside down. Right, it turned. You know, I don't know what it was like in the rest of the world. But in Ireland, they said it will be a two week lockdown. And we'll see how everything is out at night. Everybody knew it was to two weeks is ridiculous. There's no nothing was going away after two weeks. And now that's like, you mean, there's no point even kind of talking about the experience of because everyone experienced the same thing locked in their houses and stuff. But what what really was interesting, say from my professional point of view is how everyone was suddenly looking for an instructional designer or looking for a digital learning expert, or some sort of online platform. And so what I think what really came to the forefront, which was probably already on its way to the forefront was this idea of soft skills really, really mattering. But it's all well and good to, you know, send everyone home to their house or their apartment with a laptop. But how do we talk to people about resilience? Like how do we keep people motivated? How do we how do we lead in these crazy times? And so I like I said, I think it was heading that way anyway, because of the way the world is that it's almost like there's a desert movement where people are sick of nine to five or even, you know, nine to eight or whatever hours people work. It's it's almost like everyone's kind of pull their head up and said, What are we doing this for? Like, what is the point in any of this? And when and then you know, you have me keep on trying to think of how to, to, to gather my thoughts because I could talk about this all day, but at leadership, leadership is more than just, you know, making sure that the trains run on time, leadership is about caring for the, for the individuals on your team in a professional way without, you know, breaking down crying every time you talk to them kind of thing you have to. I think it's I think it's like I said, it's come to the forefront of everyone's mind that soft skills shouldn't really be called soft skills, even though I think it's behavioral skills is what they should be called. And it matters more than ever, because everyone has suffered for the last while everyone has, you know, tried to conduct a day's work with kids screaming in the background, or somebody being sick, or, you know, that just the stresses of watching the news every evening was, you know, was hard on a lot of people. And so it's not just leadership skills to become the currency. It's, it's empathetic skills. It's, it's, it's an ability to use, there's a book called, Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss who wrote a negotiation, and he talks about critical empathy. And really, what all that really means is to be able to see something from another person's point of view, while you're in the moment while we're in that moment of truth, as we will call it.
So, you know, I definitely agree to answer your question. I definitely agree that understanding leadership, but leadership is more than just leadership, it's, it's resilience, it's communication, it's empathy, it's all those different soft skills and behavioral skills. And I think it has definitely come to the forefront in the last definitely the last two years, I think it was already headed there. And I think even top top executives are realizing that if they, if they play the long game, rather than just trying to squeeze every drop out of somebody, and replacing them, you know, I used to work for Salesforce as an author, I think they are big, big enough company that most people ignore them. And the CEO there, Marc Benioff, he was all about playing the long game, all about wellness, all about making sure that everyone knew that they were valued. And it was an amazing place to work because of that, because of that understanding of you bring your whole self to work rather than just, you know, act professional for eight hours a day, and then we'll you comes back kind of thing. So like, I mean, it this is like, you know, you're talking to the converted here, like I already, I already thought that I knew that leadership and behavioral skills was the most important thing ever. So not used to me. That's what I would say.
Jason Davis 27:33
I think, you know, the combination of COVID and, you know, we're, you've got a new generation of people entering the workforce now, right? I mean, you're gonna, we're about to step into a new generation. And I think, they've obviously grown up in a digital world, a very different world than, you know, our parents did, and that in our grandparents did, where it was, you just go to work, you'd be quiet, you put your head down, you do good work, and then you go home, and then you do that for 40 years, and then you maybe retire. But that's that's not, you know, that's not the idea, or the ideal anyway, that I even had growing up. I know, it's not when my daughter has, because she certainly wasn't raised that way. You know, there are different expectations, I think of the workplace, and how people are being treated. And I think obviously, you know, there's, there's been some openness anyway, to just, you know, inclusivity, and diversity and equity and things like that. And that goes, well beyond race, right? It gets into disabilities, it gets into age, you know, all those things, I think are something that, you know, people now that are entering that workforce, they have a very decent ground on what those things should look like, or maybe how people should act. And they don't see leaders acting that way.
Maybe they are, you know, depending on their environment, right. But I think it's something that is what is driving that importance, anyway, is the expectation, right? The expectation from the people that are coming in, or growing up in the workforce now.
Kevin Redmond 29:07
On a very simple level, everything, everything you say there's an encapsulated and warm idea that the nine to five is dead, there is no such thing as a nine to five anymore, like and it used to be that that's what used to happen. Like in the industrial age, people would just clock in at nine that they make the widgets for eight hours, and then they clock out at five and go home. So the nine to five was just ridiculous. And that that spills out into everything you said there about inclusivity and diversity and all that but really what that is, is everyone bringing our whole self to work to showing up as a as a complete individual as you can but you're not putting on an act for eight hours, which is exhausting. I would imagine if you're just not being real. You are pretending to be someone else. Yeah, like it's and then the leaders have to be aware of that. They have to they have to lead with empathy, they have to lead with that understanding that we're all different. We're all driven by different things. We've got different ambitions, we've got different things happening at home, you've got different things happening in our emotional minefield. You have to that's what management is. Now, it isn't just about command and control anymore. Those days are dead and buried.
Jason Davis 30:22
Exactly. So, moving on there, what three things do managers need to know about behavioral skills or soft skills? As the workplace evolves.
Kevin Redmond 30:35
Well, what I would say is that the, I think you would ignore those kinds of soft skills at your peril. I think, if you're if you're not on board with, you know, some people, some people think that soft skills are a bit kind of what's the word? You know, that wishy washy, like are they're kind of, you know, just get on with the work religion? Like, why do we talk when emotions for all of it? It's almost a sign of weakness or something, you know, just can you not just do your job? Why do we have to talk about our emotions all the time? And I think sometimes people are they see me I don't have a no, we're gonna put the video up. But anyone who can't see me I actually got over. Um, I'm kind of big, bulky. So people don't expect emotional talk. For me. They don't it's it's strange that it can be a bit jarring. Sometimes when people hear me specifically talking about it, that they, they just don't expect from somebody who looks like me, I think sometimes, which I think is kind of always makes me laugh. But you know, people go, Oh, you're talking about emotions and film. So that was the, that would be the first thing I'd say for anyone who is thinking that they can just bulldoze their way through people these days were command to control I'm in charge, and you just do what I say. You're, you're gonna be left behind. There's a there's actually, I think I mentioned earlier on there, and Daniel H Pink's book to sell as human, he tells a story about a used car salesman, how back in the 70s, a used car salesman was essentially the gatekeeper of the information. And if you had to buy a car from him, you just had to believe what He said and hoped it was true. Whereas when he wrote the book, I think the book is like, maybe 2010, or something even before that, so but when he rolled with you saying, there's no information piratey, I can just go and google the registration of a car. And I love as much information as you do. So now you have to be a consultant. There's no point in you trying to be the gatekeeper of knowledge on this particular car. Because you don't know what I know about this car. I want to know if you're full, full of nonsense for like when I get there. It's the same thing with leadership, there's no point. There's no point being there, there's no point doing that command and control thing, you have to have to be consultative. I think with your team, there's no point pretending you know everything because nobody does. And there's a great quote from Richard on that the only guarantee and businesses that you and everyone around, you will make mistakes. And once you enter into that, like if you try and if you try and ignore those kinds of ideas, then you will get left behind. So second thing actually, I think I mentioned already, to my top three things. A second thing is that empathy or being able to understand and use emotions isn't a sign of weakness, that sometimes people you know, can can think that kindness is, is a green light to try and run over someone. But it's not just being kind and being aware of other people, doesn't mean you're weak. It's a it's a, it's a, it's a great thing to have in your toolkit to be able to be empathetic. And the third thing is that these skills can be learned. And the there's a lot of a lot of people who will be emotionally intelligent have that EQ, as they call it. But it can be learned like any skill like sales like negotiation, you can you can you can develop that metacognition, where you step outside yourself, and think about your own thoughts like that. And we set it around but self awareness is a it's like a superpower if you have it. Like if you if you can, you can step outside yourself and really think deeply about how a meeting went, or, you know, what did I bring to the table? And when I said this, they seem to get really upset and wonder why that was and what you want. But all the answers but even asking the questions as a as a good start. So that'd be my three things. I think that I think you'll you'll ignore soft skills at your peril. Empathy, or using soft skills, not a sign of weakness, and you can learn it's very, very learnable it's exciting to learn as well we start to see things, especially like if you learn like persuasion techniques for you, you start to improve your sales technique or something just by being genuinely curious. Those things become it becomes very interesting and about why things work. Don't
Jason Davis 35:01
I like how you brought up the, you know, ignore soft skills at your own peril, right. And just thinking about managers, bosses that I've had in the past, you know, I've been there. No one likes working for that person. No one, like I tried to stay away from absolutes, but like no one for that type of person. You know that best? Very few, right? I mean, it's just doesn't create a good working environment where you can feel like, you've got a little bit of safety to fail, and you've got a little bit of safety to ask for help. Those Those things just don't typically exist when you've got a leader that doesn't accept soft skills, or doesn't use them as a way to effectively
Kevin Redmond 35:50
You have to value them, even if you think you're no good at them, at least understand their value in the, in the ecosystem of the professional environment.
Jason Davis 36:00
I was going to go back to your pillars there, right? That's, that's can getting into that ultimate of understanding, right? If you say, Alright, we're gonna do some soft skills training, we got to make sure our managers know why, right, you know, why are we going through this? Well, we're going to lose people if you don't do it. So that's, that's number one, probably. And then they're probably not going to perform for you very well, if they are here. So yeah, so there's a lot to go go with there. And then that should be a lot of your motivation. You know, if you're thinking about your own goals, and things like that, so
Kevin Redmond 36:32
You know what it'll do for an individual as well, it'll make everyone have a nicer day. I remember I said it to my sister years ago, we were talking about, I think, was talking about careers and stuff. I was saying, you know, all anyone ever really wants, whether you're an astronaut or a bull's driver, everyone just wants to get up in the morning, have a nice day and go back to bed. And one of the best ways you can do that is by is by you can, if in doubt, give a tip I always think as well, if in doubt, make someone else's life better do something for someone else, if you're not sure what to do, just help someone because it's, it's almost like the human condition, I think, to want to help somebody. But we don't always know that that. Again, I can come across like on a doormat now, because if I keep helping if everyone's going to walk all over me, it's not how goals it's you'll be seen as the guy who can get things done or getting solved. So.
Jason Davis 37:21
And I saw a stat that came from McKinsey, I think it was like 2020 Anyway, and it was 75% of people say that their manager is their most stressful part of their day.
Kevin Redmond 37:36
People don't leave companies, they leave managers. Like, that's right. All the research I did for Tribel, I asked everyone like, I spoke to HR managers and L&D managers, and I said, Well, why do people leave companies now managers? Like it's nothing to do with the company policy, it's the individual they just cannot get on with, or they just cannot stand or there's not they're not being listened to? Or people leave managers, not companies?
Jason Davis 38:00
I saw that. And it was, you know, almost sick to my stomach. I'm like, Ah, you know, as being a people leader in the past, like, was that guy, you know, was probably 75. Yeah, probably, you know, certainly not impossible. But it really makes you think about that. So I appreciate bringing that up.
In an earlier conversation that you and I had, you brought up the topic around follower skills. I thought that was really interesting. So what do you mean by follower skills?
Kevin Redmond 38:33
Yeah, what do I mean? I think it's more of an observation rather than a well thought out theory. It, let me see if I can put a theory on the spot. All right. Okay, so we can't all be architects. That's the way I think about it. Like if you had a team of 20 people, and all 20 people who are architects who's going to lay the bricks, we can't all be architects, you know. And I just don't see much. Talk about follower skills. I read. One of the books we did recently for our podcast was about Amazon. Oh, Amazon after problems, like from people skills and art, but I was curious about it from just being a behemoth of a company, just you know, how did they do what they did. But they talk a lot about their different skills they use in different ways. They run meetings, and one of the things they have is, disagree and commit. So if you're in a meeting, and you wholeheartedly disagree with the direction that the project is taking, but there's consensus from everyone else, at a certain point, you just have to disagree and commit to it. And I think that's probably what made me think about follower skills. So do we teach that dude like, I don't, I've never been asked to teach anyone about fall over skills. And really what it means I think, is general actually I've just thought of something out that when I worked for Salesforce, I had a A manager, great guy called Rob. And he used to say what he wants from his team is for everyone to be a good citizen of the company. Remember, think that was a great line, but you know, we should be good citizens, you should, everyone should do the right thing, even when nobody is watching. That was his kind of approach of things. I think maybe that's part of what I'm talking about with follower skills, that if if the team leader decides we're doing something, and you don't agree with it, then maybe there should be a mechanism for you to disagree with it. But at some point, you will have to disagree and commit. But we don't seem to talk about that more. Actually, you know, all the books that I read, I don't see much about being a good follower, we see a lot about being a good leader. Now, some people might spin that round and say, Well, you cannot be a leader of yourself. And that means following the leader, just you know, you could twist the words or something, but I don't I don't have a well tolerated theory on it yet, but I just don't see much about follower skills. I see a lot about leadership and you know, how to lead the team. But what about the team themselves? How do you, like do as I say, as a leader, should I put in mechanisms for people to disagree or mechanisms for people to air their opinions? Or should ever just do what they're told? That doesn't seem right, either, like so. Like, I say, it's not a well thought out theory, we didn't get there, Jason may come up with a theory on the spot. But we tried, I think I just think there should be more about how to be a good follower. And that's, that's, that's, as far as I've gotten a report back what I've called the theory,
Jason Davis 41:36
Just thinking about that between the first time we talked about it and today, before we're recording, I compare that to, you know, so at least in the US, it might be like this elsewhere as well. They don't teach how to follow right. In the, in when you think about career progression, this is kind of where I was going with when you think about career progression. It's very linear, right? Or you're taught that it's very linear. But as you have explained, and I've experienced, right, it's not it's up and down and sideways, sometimes you might get knocked down a little bit, you know, I mean, it's not, it is absolutely not linear in the sense that you just kind of keep going along in this trajectory. And I feel like anyway, that is where, why it's not being taught or maybe not, following skills aren't being taught. But I think just that there's that assumption, or there's this expectation that things are just linear, and that I'm only gonna follow for a very short amount of time, until I finally assembled the Deleter into being in theater. And, you know, I've talked to a lot of people in the past, and, you know, they said, I want to grow my career, but I don't want to lead people. You know, so how do I do that? And in some places, that's very difficult, right? It's very difficult to to ascend past a certain level in the organization, if you're not going to be a people leader. I think now, mainly, maybe a little bit, because you've got, you know, HR departments talking about, Hey, your career path is not linear. It's, it's, it's a little bit of everything. I think now you're starting to see more about that, from a corporate world. But I don't think from an education standpoint, or you know, University College or anything like that, that they're really talking about career paths being. Yeah, it's a little bit all over the place. And it's not just this ascension upwards, right? Because you're, and it's, I don't know, again, it may not be any relation, right. But you're you go through school and your freshman, Junior Senior, you know, you do all those things, and then your junior senior again, and it's very linear, all the way up until you finally hit the working world. And then it's, you know, everything. Yeah, it's a little bit of everything. There's, there's a lot there. It's it's a scatterplot. Essentially, what you're looking at this drawing, drawing the lines there. So I don't know that's, that's the way I think about that, anyway, is that you're right, they're not teaching it. I don't know that again, if it's an intentional, you know, hey, we don't want to teach people that I don't think that's it at all. I think there's just just kind of a general assumption that things are always linear, because that's what you experience up until the point where you go into the working world.
Kevin Redmond 44:19
Yeah. And then so most people try and continue that linear path by just continuously going for the next promotion without any real reason why, like, Why do you like I've been promoted and promoted and promoted and you get your circuit up the ladder anything why? Why am I doing this? It's more money but it's more pressure or it's, you know, more people asking you questions and trying to, which if that's for you, great, like but I think a lot of the time people go for promotions because that's what everyone else is doing or sometimes like it's I don't know, it's and then then you can sound like your, you know, your workshop or you're lazy or something because you don't want to, you know, smash it I'm hostile all the time. But what are we doing for what's, where are we headed?
Jason Davis 45:05
I was gonna say you experience that with family, right? You go to family gatherings. And they ask you, How's work going? Oh, yeah, when's the next promotion, you know, they started asking you, they you get drilled out, even with your family on some of those things, too. And it's just, I think it just makes it an interesting conversation just around, hey, let me do this for a little bit, while I kind of either a figure out what it is that I, if I want to be a leader, and then figure out a way to do that, and do it well, so that I can take on that role when you're never going to be fully prepared for it. But at least kind of understand, you know, some of the better ways to to happen to something like that.
Kevin Redmond 45:47
You know, what I've been reading lately, as well as Ryan Holiday, you know, you heard him here, he's written he's written a lot about the Stoics, right, a lot of the ancient philosophers and he's there, he has a series of books called the obstacles, the way Ego is the Enemy. These kinds of things like to enter, it'll take them one kind of lessons, or shortcut books. But one of the things I read in one of his books was, I wish I could remember which the philosopher's was let's just say it was Seneca because I can't remember and who's gonna check. So Seneca said that you should lead a considered life. And I think that's probably the ultimate thing for anyone in any career, or what you're doing is to, to lead a considered life where you, you're not just allowing yourself to be distracted by Netflix, or, you know, continuously being promoted, or, you know, whatever, that you're actually stepping outside yourself on a periodic basis and saying, What am I doing here? Where do I want to go? Why do I want to go there? And then allow, and then and then, like we said, almost at the beginning of this conversation, you know, your day isn't gonna go how you think it's gonna go? So do you have the necessary toolkit to, to roll the punches? And then step outside yourself again, and say, What do I want to do now? Wherever I want to go? Why don't want to go there? So I think that's, that's one of the one of the foundation stones of for anyone who's like entering the world of work or doesn't know what to do, later considered life, live or considered life where you're considering things. Like, say, for example, today, it's in billionaire time? Oh, yes. It's nearly five o'clock. 5pm. And after I put my kids to bed, me and my wife got to watch Netflix, but that's a considered thing. We're gonna, it's not just like kind of, you know, sleepwalking into we've decided we're going to watch something. So I think that kind of thing is important. If you're are going to be distracted lecture. It's good decided consciously to do it. And you'll enjoy it more than if you're if you're just if it's considered, you know.
Jason Davis 47:52
Exactly. Alright, Kevin, well, I think that's a great way to wrap us up here. So just before we get out, what what final thoughts or plugs do you have? And where can people find you if they have questions.
Kevin Redmond 48:05
And the best thing to do, I think, for anyone, if they're if they think they might be interested in what we do a Tribel is to just listen to the podcast. So if you go to mytribel.com, and one of my pet hates that any startup is when they spell the name of their startup wrong, or they they drop all the vowels out of it or something. But I've spelled Tribel wrong, which on purpose, like which, I hate myself a little bit for it. So it's spelled MYTRIBEL. So it's mytribel.com and it's short for tribe of learners. That's why we have to call a Tribel spelled wrong. So it's mytribel.com, and you'll see all of our podcasts there and have listened. If you want to go deeper with them. Just get in touch, you can get me at Kevin@mytribel.com. And, you know, we'd love to talk anyone who thinks they might be interested in what we're doing and how we do it. And other than that, I would say to people just live or considered life, don't just each one teach one I think is always a good thing to keep in mind. Just, if in doubt, teach somebody something or give something to somebody. So.
Jason Davis 49:11
Alright, well, I will make sure to include a link to mytribel.com in the show notes. That way, everybody's got that as well. They don't have to worry about the spelling.
Just go from there. So yeah. All right, Kevin, hey, this has been an excellent conversation. I really appreciate your time, going through this talking through soft skills, talking about how you got into it, where you know, what your younger experiences, you know, really pushed you towards, and then how you're using those today. I think it's a fantastic story and would love to hear more again sometime. So.
Kevin Redmond 49:40
Yeah. Well, Jason, I feel like I could talk to you all day. I really enjoy that time passed really quickly. So it did appreciate you having me on. So it's always good to talk to somebody like minded and think as well as striving for the same thing. So it's been great to be here.
Jason Davis 49:55
Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for joining the show. And we'll talk soon again.
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